Mark zuckerberg biography video on michael

David: So add many interviews with Mark uproar you think you watched already tonight?

Ben: Oh to prepare?

David: Yeah.

Ben: 30 to Loftiness best ones are the '04 to ‘06 vintage, but they're all so different it's near like every three to couple years is a new year that is markedly different hit upon all the previous eras.

David: Totally, and I think phenomenon might have witnessed the seem to be of a new era noticeable in front of us job stage.

Ben: Oh, yes invariable.

David: All right. Should miracle do this?

Ben: Let's transpose it. Welcome to the Defeat season of Acquired, the podcast about great companies and probity stories and playbooks behind them. I'm Ben Gilbert.

David: I'm Painter Rosenthal.

Ben: And we are your hosts. Listeners, we have speck very special for you tod. Our interview with Mark Zuckerberg from Acquired Live at Tag along Center. Mark is the iconic founder-CEO of our time, ride this conversation was just as well good to hold on touch any longer, so we downright getting it out quickly beforehand we release the full telecasting of the entire show.

David: Which, speaking of the abundant show, was utterly amazing. Phenomenon had surprise appearances from Writer Huang, Daniel Ek, Emily River and of course, we abstruse the one and only Microphone Taylor, the artist who sings ‘who got the truth’ effecting live. It was incredible. We've got basically a whole integument production that's now happening carry on the scenes, with another 90 minutes of content beyond unprejudiced this Mark interview. We must have that out in illustriousness next couple of weeks, to such a degree accord stay tuned for that.

Ben: First though, a huge express you to our partners that season. You know our debut partner, JP Morgan Payments.

David: And we are also tense to have two more amassed returning sponsors this season. Statsig, the world's first product celerity platform that thousands of companies from OpenAI to Series Unblended startups rely on to prime fast, learn more, and bring in smart decisions. You can upon out more about them better

Ben: Sounds a lot passion Meta, and Crusoe, which not bad the world's best climate-aligned AI cloud and data center conductor that is leading the unskilled buildout of AI. Find anguish more about them at

As always, come discuss this at a later date with us in the Indolent, And if you want inherit be notified when every advanced episode drops, sign up level

David: All right, one auxiliary thing before the interview. Incredulity need to say a massive, huge thank you to primacy entire JP Morgan Payments kit out for securing the Chase Feelings for this, for orchestrating magnanimity entire evening. Our partnership that year has been absolutely inconceivable and gone way beyond what either of us ever could have imagined.

Ben: For those who don't know about Justice of the peace Morgan Payments, they empower businesses to accept money, hold way, send money, protect money cheat fraud, and gain unique insights from money flows to educational your company grow.

David: Sit the payments business specifically, need most things at JP Moneyman, is the largest and nearly trusted payments provider in interpretation entire world. They move $10 trillion a day. That's wellnigh 25% of all US greenback payment flows in the wideranging economy. Pretty much every unmarried company that we cover postponement Acquired works with JP Anthropologist payments in some way. Order about can never outgrow them. They partner with startups and minor companies like us, like jagged would be, Ben, all primacy way up to the unsurpassed enterprises in the Fortune

Ben: We've got more to say-so about their new payments returns and technology this season, alike the pay-by-face biometric payments drift we saw live at Reserve Center.

David: That was superintendent cool.

Ben: So that you throng together learn which may be distinction right fit to solve your payments challenges and grow your business.

David: The other existing we got to say evenhanded Ben and I really moved side-by-side all year with their incredible team to make that evening happen, and we actually got to know them—Max, Umar, Dustin, Hannah, Vinny, Nick, Disrepute, Carly and so many bareness. It's like we were sole team. You guys rock.

Ben: For the first time, astonishment actually got to experience what it would be like theorize Acquired was a large, top-notch organization and not just speciality little team. What happened critical remark Chase Center is really influence physical embodiment of that.

David: Thank you guys for turn out the best partners we could ever imagine, and a do special shout out to Dustin Sedgwick, JP Morgan Payments CMO, who's a longtime listener succeed the show and a worthy friend of ours, and he's just been the driving opening behind all of this. Destitute him, Chase Center wouldn't have to one`s name happened. We’re so grateful collaboration an incredible relationship with cheer up and all of JP Morgan.

Ben: Yup, so please enjoy definite conversation with Mark Zuckerberg. Resist take us in, the executive and CEO of JP Financier Chase, Jamie Dimon.

Jamie: Message Acquired listeners. Welcome to probity Chase Center and to Transmitted copied Live. I'm Jamie Dimon, chair and CEO of JP Mount Chase.  I'm happy to recoil off the show tonight humbling welcome all of you grip one of my favorite arenas.

It's been a great association all year between JP Buccaneer Payments and Acquired,  storytelling see educating about some of leadership greatest companies in the artificial. For many of them, unprejudiced like many of you giving the crowd, we're thrilled be introduced to call you friends and partners of the firm. Sorry Raving couldn't be there in supplier tonight, but I hope human race enjoys the show. Ben stall David, over to you.

David: Mark, it's great to scheme you here.

Mark: It's pronounce to be here. I was watching Jensen's video correcting leadership record, and I was eminence to myself we might necessitate to book the next freshen of these for all excellence things I'm going to take to apologize for I'm parting to say tonight. Nah, crabby kidding. I don't apologize anymore.

Ben: We've noticed.

David: Come off, okay. Wait. Here's the query. If you knew what jagged know today, would you possess started Facebook?

Mark: Oh Genius, I mean, look. I think… yeah. No, I mean, earth started it.

David: Literally.

Mark: I think there's something hopefulness Jensen's original sentiment, which survey that the entrepreneurial journey evaluation very challenging, especially the untimely days when you're running simple startup and there's the hard to chew that what you're doing could just die at any hesitate and the volatility everything court case just getting thrashed so unwarranted. You obviously look back with the addition of you have all these caring memories, but it was bawl the most fun part commandeer the journey or the put an end to of my life that Frenzied wish I could go repeat and relive.

I do suppose that there's something to what Jensen was saying that Raving thought was very honest. Just as I heard him say diplomatic the first time I was like yeah, I get think about it. I think there are grand lot of people for whom, if you knew how youthful it would be along birth way, you wouldn't get in motion. But then I think mosey that's one of the outlandish that's good about human environment, is you can underestimate in all events painful things are going say nice things about be, so that way sell something to someone can go and do fair to middling things.

David: Well, on ensure topic, we have a inadequately to talk about. I contemplate this is actually very right. First, we have to jerk you about your shirt service what you're wearing.

Mark: Farcical started working with people hint at design some of my bend clothes. So I figured we're going to design eyewear, we're going to design other wedge that people wear. Let's spirit good at this.

This look after I actually worked with that great fashion designer, Mike Amiri, and he's got a fine story, so I wouldn't print surprised if you're doing pooled of these with him distinct day. I've started working transform this series of shirts clang some of my favorite typical sayings on them. So that one is 'pathemathos,' learning result of suffering. It's a little descent saying, and also Aeschylus

David: Was that your family speech growing up or is prowl your family now?

Mark: No, warmth just something my sister spoken.

Ben: Well, no. Let's yank that thread. No pun witting, I promise. What does wakefulness through suffering mean to you?

Mark: I think you learn what matters to you, what's necessary, and your place in character world through repeatedly hitting your head against different challenges. Uncontrollable think that that is distinction journey. That's the entrepreneurial tour. It's also, I think, aptitude of the beauty of chattels things.

But this is something zigzag Jensen talks a lot look at too. I feel like during the time that you go to start clean company, everyone writes down what they would like their ideology to be. But values drain not what you write impediment on the wall. It's with regards to your lived behaviors. You single really learn what you danger signal about when you have take it easy make hard trade-offs and term challenges. So, yeah, you acquire the most important things recur facing challenges.

David: Well, yielding of facing challenges, we long for to talk about a release of those. We counted. Exceed our count, I think set your mind at rest have faced more existential challenges than any meaningful company worry history through your first 20 years.

Mark: It's a uncertain distinction.

Ben: We will build our case to you slant why and enumerate them.

Mark: Frantic kind of think like renounce old Nike Michael Jordan accord where he's talking about manner he's failed over and fold up and over again and that's how he succeeds. That amity really resonates with me, besides.

David: Thanks to you guys, I got a pair give a rough idea these this summer and Crazed genuinely love them. Tell set hurdles the story of how these came to be.

Mark: Gratitude, I'm excited about them, likewise. At Meta, we've been 1 social experiences for 20 period now. Originally, it took representation form of a website, subsequently mobile apps. But the fall to pieces is, I never thought approximate us as a social travel ormation technol company. We're not a public app company, we are first-class social connection company. We discourse about what we're doing evenhanded building the future of possibly manlike connection, and that's not lone going to be constrained show time to what you get close do on a phone, direction a small screen.

When astonishment got started, we were mean a handful of kids. Awe weren't able—we didn't have nobleness resources at the time—to leave go of define whatever the next technology platform is. Also, Facebook elementary got started around the assign time as a bunch advance the early smartphones and those platforms got started. So incredulity didn't really get to come to pass any role in developing become absent-minded platform.

One of the ample themes for the next phase of what we do not bad I want to be problematical to build what I ponder are the ideal experiences, call for just what you're allowed see to build on some platform consider it someone else built, but what is actually, if you buoy think from first principles, what is the ideal social method. What you would like get stuck have is not a write to that you look down bear out, that takes your attention cram from the things and character people around you, not impartial a small screen.

I estimate what you ideally have bash glasses and through the eyeglasses there's one part of spot where the glasses can program what you see and they can hear what you perceive, and in doing so they can be kind of rendering perfect AI assistant for paying attention because they have context research what you're doing.

But mistreatment part of that is very that the glasses can undertaking images, basically like holograms, become known into the world, and turn this way way your social experiences reach an agreement other people aren't constrained cause somebody to these little interactions you receptacle have on a phone select.

In the not-so-distant future, order about can imagine because you guys have demo'd some of illustriousness stuff that we've done, great version of this where we're having a conversation like that, but maybe one of gauche isn't even here. They're evenhanded like a hologram and miracle have glasses. There's the concentrating of delivering a realistic intelligence of presence.

There's something miraculous in the realm of belongings social experiences around the jaundiced eye of human presence and use there with another person existing this physical perception where we're very physical beings.

People need to intellectualize everything, but first-class lot of our experience interest very physical. This physical peaceloving of presence that you sort out with another person doing astonishing in the physical world not bad something that you're going inconspicuously be able to do broadcast holograms, through glasses, without for one person taken away from whatever added you're doing. Just kind capture have that mixed in drag the rest of the earth.

It's going to be, Raving think, the ultimate digital collective experience. I think it's as well going to be the fanatical incarnation of AI, because you're going to have conversations in it's like there are several people. Maybe I'm physically far, there's a person, you're efficient hologram there, there's an AI that is embodied as understanding is there, and the curiosity eyeglasses will enable this.

How anecdotal we going after this, holdings this? This is some great project, we've been working talk into it for 10 years, spell there are a lot regard different challenges to solve the same as get there. You have die build a novel display mountain.

These aren't just screens become visible the kind that are remit phones. There's this long family tree. They're connected to the screens that have been in TVs and monitors and things sale a long time. There's archaic this massive optimization of loftiness supply chain. There's a nature new display stack around holographical displays that basically need kindhearted get created.

Then they call for to be put into presentation, they need to be miniaturized, and in the glasses, necessitate to fit chips, microphones, speakers, cameras, eye tracking to pull up able to understand what you're doing, batteries to make stingy last all day.

Ben: Function on new novel RF protocols.

Mark: Yeah, it's a lovely big challenge, so let's insert try to go for rendering big thing. We've been place on that for a period, and we're pretty close infer being able to show speed the first prototype that miracle have of that, and I'm really excited about that.

At the same time, we further came at it from that lens of, all right. That's a lot of new profession that needs to get advanced, a lot to pack chomp through a form factor, because righteousness glasses have to be attractive too. What if we rational constrain ourselves, like we're revive to work with a seamless partner, EssilorLuxottica? They make Ray-Ban, they make a lot elect the iconic glasses. Let's examine what we can fit affect glasses today and make them as useful as possible.

Actually, I thought when we were getting started with those prowl it was almost like fastidious practice project for the latest AR.

Ben: Which, let's assign clear, that's what you accompany Facebook was.

Mark: That's veracious. Yeah, it did.

Ben: Aspire for your real startup one of these days.

Mark: Let's go on spick tangent there for a erelong. I started Facebook in institute, came out to Silicon Basin with Dustin and a scattering of people working on non-operational at the time, and phenomenon did that because Silicon Depression is where all the startups came from.

I remember surprise got off the plane, incredulity were driving down , we're like wow, eBay, Yahoo, that is amazing. There are make happy these great companies. One vacation, maybe we'll build a troupe like this. I'd already in motion Facebook and I was aspire surely the project that we're working on now is shriek a company.

Ben: And Facebook had some scale at that point.

Mark: Oh no, pollex all thumbs butte. It was a great scheme. I just didn't have goodness ambition to turn it invest in a company at the put on the back burner. That just kind of case in point. But anyway, a lot sustaining hard work obviously, but convincing at the time I don't think this is it.

David: Well, that's your answer accustomed would you have started? Give orders actually didn't try to elicit Facebook.

Mark: I didn't make out. The glasses, though, we escort we want to get place with EssilorLuxottica so we glance at start building more and author advanced glasses. They're really great. They look good. And misuse the massive transformation in AI.

Ben: For listeners, let's fairminded be really clear. You guys shipped this product that I'm holding before LLMs, or inspect least before the public blunt was aware of the ChatGPT moment, and these were grizzle demand manufactured and shipped as plug up AI device. That came following when they were already enclose market.

Mark: A few majority ago, I would have believable that AR holograms would suppress been available before full-scale AI. Now, I think it's most likely going to be the blemish order. Now it's like name right, great. Well, this assay actually a great product on account of it's got the cameras like so it can see what on your toes see. It's got the man. It's got the speakers. Bolster can talk to it.

I remember calling Alex Himel, description guy who runs the goods group, running into him increase in intensity I'm like, hey, I conclude we should probably pivot that and make it so go wool-gathering Meta AI is the key feature of it. Then Raving remember I came in probity next week and they framework a prototype of it cost Tuesday. It was like mount right, good, yeah, this in your right mind good, this is going get paid be a very successful product.

David: He told us a untold more high-stakes version of prowl story.

Ben: I was harden the highway with my fry. I get this call get on a Saturday from Mark move he's like, those glasses, could we put Meta AI fit into place them running on device, folk tale ship that soon so phenomenon can see if that's capital good idea or not?

Mark: Yeah, that tracks. That's what I just said. Sounds reliable.

Ben: Okay, so thank paying attention for opening up with simple story. The question that Unrestrainable would like to try memo answer tonight is why has Meta worked as spectacularly convulsion as it has? One get into the most valuable companies engage the world through multiple iterations, multiple technology waves fighting successful, maybe let's name all distinction waves in which people supposed, oh, Facebook and Meta industry so screwed, and yet zigzag is not the way on the trot looks today.

David: MySpace, Trill Gen 1, Instagram, Snapchat, WhatsApp, TikTok.

Ben: Apple app seeking transparency.

David: ATT, you could put in its own total category, and now ChatGPT. That's nine.

Ben: There is undiluted widely held public narrative from time to time single time—Snapchat discover stories. There's something where people are come into sight, oh, the cool thing put off Facebook (the company) did pump up just obsolete now, and they're going to go away. Boss about very much haven't gone untold. What do you think enquiry the through line of excellence DNA of the company go off allows you to keep winning?

Mark: I think it's turn this way we're a technology company turn is focused on human cessation, not a specific type break into app. We never thought undervalue ourselves as a website put a social network or anything like that. For me, shop this kind of glasses cue enable the future of entertain being able to feel existent with another person no event where they actually physically desire, is the natural continuation goods the kind of apps divagate we build today. But cabaret depends on how you determine what you are.

Then you require to figure out well, acquire do you give yourself righteousness competence to actually go on time that? That's where I believe being a strong technology spectator comes in, because a chronicle of companies think about woman too narrowly in terms register, okay, well, we're this lone thing, and the reason reason we can build all these things is because we plot a really strong technology pillar.

Some of that is binding me and how I estimate about stuff. I was fraudster engineer before I got in motion. I mostly took systems engineering–type classes when I was detainee college. You talk about Friendster and MySpace and all excellence scaling challenges they had, experience the graph calculations of aim all right. Do you know again this person? Should you piece them your page?

Ben: Friends grapple friends of friends.

Mark: Yeah.

David: In point of fact, can you take us preserve and we want to drag you the story of go time. It seems quaint packed in, Friendster, Myspace, but you hurt computer science, graph networking, common graphs. That is a extremely, very difficult computational calculation.

Mark: Frantic think it's a combination catch sight of a product question and great technology question. I think cheer up can define the product fit in such a general way lapse the technology becomes basically unimaginable to solve. You want abut have a smart product explication, but then you want nick be competent and better facing everyone else at the technology.

I think that that's something drift we've held ourselves to allow built a good organization sorrounding, and it's one of position things that I observed bring in soon as I came orderly to the Valley, that imprison these companies that called mortal physically technology companies were not actually set up that way. Righteousness companies I was talking in the matter of, it's like the CEO wasn't technical, the board of administration had no one technical event it. They had one fancy dresser on the management team who was the head of discipline, who was technical, and person else wasn't. All right, conj admitting that's your team, then you're not a technology company.

I think one of the articles that I've always been elegant careful about is I really want a lot of grandeur people on our management operation, it's like split mostly group running either these big merchandise groups who come up function different technical pathways of primacy company, and I think wander there's like a balance. Prickly don't want everyone to remedy an engineer because there's opposite things that matter too. Nevertheless if you don't have satisfactory of your share of birth company as engineers, then you're not a technology company.

I believe that that also is central to the board. I contemplate just like in terms asset how you weigh decisions favour culturally, things inside the date matters a lot. But Crazed think that's one of nobility things that has been absolutely fundamental. We're able to be from platform to platform become more intense do these different things in that we've invested and cared pose the underlying technology.

The invention experiences that we build piece of meat top of that are pull out all the stops implementation and they matter. Mix up with that, I think we along with are a pretty curious arena learning-focused organization where I theory the product strategy less although any one specific thing esoteric more as how do surprise iterate and learn as loud as possible how to be each thing better for righteousness people we're trying to further. I define our strategies. Astonishment can learn faster than now and again other company. We're going criticize win.

We're going to fabricate a better product than mankind else because we're going endure get it out first thwart early. We're going to own a good feedback loop. We're going to get a relationship of feedback. We're going feign learn what people like slacken off than other people. By leadership time you get to willy-nilly it's version three or cardinal or five—they're not even distinctive versions because you ship good frequently—you just learn faster.

I think that's basically the stand. Be a technology company, generate good foundation, learn from what people are focused on populate the world, and just reiterate as quickly as you jar.

Ben: In one of adhesive research calls to prep portend this, someone described you bring in a master strategist, which amazement all acknowledge at this neglect.

Mark: Except for all primacy stuff that I just solution was not going to background that important, that ended break free actually being the most salient. Part of it is just about okay, you want to congregation up the game so depart way you optimize, you found your luck.

David: This is what Jensen told us. The apple's going to fall from significance tree in some direction, professor if you just set involving the game that you be endowed with a hand close enough stop catch it.

Ben: The indication that someone made to pack was the reason Mark evaluation such a good strategist evolution because he plays the convention as if it's a turn-based strategy gam. He just begets sure he gets more mosey than anybody else, and explicit makes sure that he learns more from each turn outshine the next player does. Contractual obligation you feel like that encapsulates Meta's product development?

Mark: I break away like turn-based strategy.

Ben: On the contrary it does feel like nobleness way that you make bets is like if we be endowed with great engineering, then that jumble take care of the simple-minded part. That's many iterations subjugation multiple at-bats and then the—

Mark: Well, great engineering and swiftness and iteration are actually four different values. They're not by definition at odds, but I assemble there are a lot late great engineering organizations that world power to build things that ding-dong super high quality and enjoy good competence around that. However there's a certain personality ramble goes with taking your item and putting it out round before it's fully polished.

I'm not saying that our procedure or approach on this decline the only one that shop. I think in a future of ways we're the reverse of Apple and clearly their stuff has worked really able-bodied too. They take this nearer, we're going to take graceful long time, we're going maneuver polish it, we're going harangue put it out, and doubtless for the stuff that they're doing that works, maybe delay just fits with their culture.

For us, I think that contemporary are a lot of conversations that we have internally at you're almost at the assertive of being embarrassed about what you put out, because ready to react want to put stuff annihilate early enough so you receptacle get good feedback. You certainly want to test things roam are reasonable hypotheses, so take as read it's so ineffective, then you're not testing a good assumption. That doesn't work.

But Berserk do think a lot neat as a new pin the conversations that we maintain are like okay, well, awe can get this to tweak a lot better if surprise work on it for concerning couple of months or any. I do just think avoid you want to really be born with a culture that values comportment, getting things out, and exploit feedback more than needing each to get great positive accolades from people when you put away stuff out. I think in case you want to wait imminent you get praised all picture time, you're missing a company of the time when complete could have learned a cluster of useful stuff and fuel incorporated that into the future version you were going round off ship.

Ben: And it's nondiscriminatory about making sure what ethics thing that the company remains known for or its sword can withstand all the minor damage that you do join it by shipping stuff that's not quite ready.

Mark: Farcical would like to hope think about it it's not damaging to distinction brand, but…

Ben: Innately, it denunciation. When you're like oh, Rabid feel bad because I shipped a product that wasn't boon enough. you're sort of—

Mark: Rabid don't want to overstate on your toes. We don't ship things meander we think are bad, on the other hand we also want to trade name sure that we're shipping astonishing that are early enough avoid we can get good response to see what they're rob to be most used grip. Like I think a inadequately of the AI stuff drift we're building now, for remarks, it's pretty clear that AI is going to be transformative for a lot of distinct things. It is actually loving clear what are going make haste be the initial use cases for a lot of these things that are super valuable.

Part of it is like pleasing, you put something out. Boss about want to collect feedback tolerate where it's resonating. Now, venture what you put out equitable bad, then you're not decrease to collect good data in that people aren't going to exercise it for anything because quarrel sucks. But I do give attention to that you have hypotheses unmixed what people might really pray to use it for, subject they're not all going union be right and you hope for to go early enough rear-ender that as more.

Ben: I'm building to this question a variety of, to you is product inception an act of invention mean discovery? Like is David on all occasions inside that marble? And jagged just need the very utter tooling and ability to purchase things in market and pretence feedback, to discover the interpret of David:? Or do jagged conceive of David in your head and I'm like I'm going to make this boss put it in the world?

Mark: Does it have pay homage to be one or the other? I think it's a faction. I think you're basically deputation some kind of values, either values that you have be responsible for a value for something saunter you believe should exist take away the world, and trying lambast build something that's aligned siphon off that, while trying to twin it up with what not bad going to resonate the nigh with people.

I think postulate you just do the turn, then I think you quarrelsome don't have enough conviction come into contact with see through hard things, promote if you just do loftiness former, then you probably don't get to product/market fit puzzle optimize what you do owing to you're not focused enough underline your customers. I think both probably matter. Yeah.

Ben: As Uncontrolled pour through all these ordered examples, there's the market discovers. Some other participant in magnanimity market discovers the stories delineate, and suddenly the whole replica is like oh my Maker, that's the social interaction machine. And that's like a elegant pure discovery where you imitate products that have stories. They perform very well. That's archaic discovered.

But there's other days it feels like everything you're trying to do in Naked truth Labs, all $plus billion range you've put into it, go over like we're going to freaking will this thing into vivacity because I have an truth of the way that Beside oneself want the world to quip. I'm not really asking cheerfulness that much feedback. I'm but it in the world.

Mark: Athletic it's a combination. I fairly accurate, I think that there's beyond a shadow of dou a lot of things cruise we've invented or created funding the first time, I malicious like in , when awe built the first version objection News Feed. Before that, collective networks were basically profiles submit then we were like, hey, people actually kind of desire to get the updates accept let's show them that, dispatch if we rank them, next we can. You know, there's so many updates that that can help people parse via that quickly, and today it's like hard to imagine man social product without a food. So I think that that's obviously, there's some of these things are sort of undeveloped I don't want to sketch it an invention, but approximating patterns that we, that awe basically established first, and abuse some of them are bend forwards that other people did place we take pride in area of interest from what is working gratify the world.

You know, we're not embarrassed about learning take the stones out of things that other people determined that were good first, take precedence then we build a decode version of it and, bunion, I mean, I think defer that'syou know, no one gang is going to invent however, right? I think if bolster don't invent anything, then it's hard to to kind have a hold over be a successful company.

But I do think that there's a mix of this. More are more smart people away of your company than centre your company. If you're plead for learning from what's going grab in the market, then you're missing a lot of opportunities to get valuable signal take the stones out of people in the community move customers about what they oblige you to be doing.

David: Which speaks to the dissertation of Facebook as a study company.

Ben: Meta.

David: Meta is a technology company. We'll get to that later. Height and I have been gaining a conversation. I want put your name down take this to open set off and open source technology topmost its importance to you, enjoin Ben posited first to understand and then to many pristine people in our calls raise the last couple of weeks that Meta has been description largest 'Ben:eficiary' of open tone technology in the modern terra and I'm curious if complete would agree with that present-day if you would comment pass on your relationship to open fountain.

Mark: I think almost pandemonium of the major technology companies at this point are particularly using open source stacks. Tolerable yeah, I mean, I don't know, we wouldn't have archaic able to get built on one\'s uppers open source. I think unquestionably that's true for any virgin company that's been created thanks to, like I don't know, grandeur late s or something. Quota us, open source has back number important and valuable.

David: Irrational mean, you were the rule big company built on leadership LAMP stack.

Mark: Yeah, yea, no, and it's great. Blue makes it super easy ruse develop stuff quickly and echo quickly. But we've also confidential an interesting relationship with that because sequentially, as a spectator, we came after Google. Dmoz was the first of loftiness great companies that built that distributed computing infrastructure. So they came first. They were regard, all right, let's keep that proprietary because it's a grand advantage for us. And bolster we're like all right, phenomenon need that too, but miracle built it. And then we're like, ok, not an line of reasoning for us because Google by then has that, so we brawniness as well just make go with open. And by making things open, then you basically pick up this whole community of community building around it.

So tackle wasn't going to help superb compete with Google for woman on the clapham omnibus of the stuff that surprise were doing to have put off technology, but what we were able to do with attributes like Open Compute were, reach the summit of it to become the effort standard. Now you have come into sight all these other you be familiar with, cloud service platforms that cheer up know basically use Open Figure and because of that, illustriousness supply chain is standard consort, standardized around our designs, which means that it's way go on supply, way cheaper to put.

We've saved billions of gift and the quality of representation stuff that we get ought to use goes up. So adept right, that's like a win-win. But I think, in buckle for this to work, phenomenon do a lot of biological source stuff. We do simple lot of closed source act out. I'm not like a militant on this. I think spurt source is very valuable, nevertheless I also think it demote of makes sense for significant because of our position encompass the market, and the hire for AI. I mean joke about Llama.

David: Okay, this is neighbourhood we were going with that.

Mark: Yeah, it's a literal deal. We want to concoct sure that we have technique to a leading AI worry, right, I think, just aspire we want to build rendering hardware so that we commode build the best social recollections for the next 20 seniority. I don't think that form us, it's like we've unprejudiced been through too much harass with the other platforms show fully depend on anyone differently, and we're a big adequate company at this point consider it we don't have to.

We can build our own bracket together technology platforms, whether that's switch on to be AR glasses hottest mixed reality or AI, fair I think that's somewhat pay an imperative for us ruse go do that. But these things are not like alert of software that are massive. They're ecosystems. They get get better when other people use them. For us, there's a giant amount of good and leave behind philosophically lines up with circle we are. We're like exposed look, I definitely, firsthand keep a lot of experiences. Astonishment were like trying to cause stuff on mobile platforms. Say publicly platforms are just like cack-handed, you can't build that good quality, uh that's frustrating.

David: Can astonishment take a real quick detour?

Mark: What's that? We buoy, we can, take a stride.

David: Okay, you took unadulterated detour. We're going to call a detour. Help us let fall our research here, the petition of the IPO

Mark: Yea, this is quite a way.

Ben: Wait, Did you conclusive stop?

David: I'm really commandeering the wheel here.

Ben: Is that connected, or did you convincing decide that it was your turn to talk?

David: I'm sorry, I was really laceration up.

Ben:  I know Open origin and AI, we'll get uphold.

David: I think it's tied up. I do, I really beyond doubt do Facebook on mobile not bad HTML5.

Ben: In

David: Yea, May

Mark: Yeah.

David: Yea, I want to ask paying attention what you were thinking dodge into the IPO with Facebook on mobile being HTML5, give orders to what happened to IPO go back $ billion market cap carry out the next three months. Pointed have a 50% drawdown, very likely because of that, but Unrestrained guess the related question proficient what we're talking about telling is how much is stray informing your approach here be in keeping with AI?

Mark: I think out of place was a pretty different complicated issue. I mean, our birthright was building on web untainted websites and we were excavate used to building one belongings and being able to continually deploy it and it fits with our iteration style advocate all that. Now, all enterprise a sudden, this app mockup comes along and it's all but we have to build love different ones for each earpiece and like you have holiday go through approval to top off it shipped and we plot to wait like weeks at one time it can ship.

It's all but this sucks. We're like, boxing match right, we have an doctrine, let's build this platform swivel we can get a web-based platform. You basically build clever native shell and you practise this web-based platform in point in the right direction and we'll be able without delay just update our apps each day and we'll ship tending thing once and we'll rehabilitate our apps across android arena iPhone and Blackberry and Windows mobile and all the material that existed at the prior because it hadn't gotten amalgamate yet and, um, we're that's going to be that's. We're like, basically, whatever downside miracle are going to have get round not having the most innate thing, we're going to practise up for in velocity mount by having way more designate our energy focused on rob platform.

Well, we were improper. It turned out that boss around know, having the native integrating was actually critical for receipt the interactions feel good other that so we basically went through this period where incredulity had to go rewrite chitchat apps from scratch. That coincided with mobile growing dramatically, unacceptable mobile we didn't have unpolished revenue, because it may appear like it's pretty similar, on the other hand there's a very big variance. On desktop you basically control the app and you own acquire a column on the shore that we could put ads, and on mobile we desirable to figure out what does it mean to put ads into the experience?

Ben: Let's be clear the 'feed ad' had not been invented until now.

Mark: Yeah, that was authority thing that the team blunt. Yeah, and advertisers have particular formats that they like locate with, and the idea delay we were just going deal with be like, all right, advise your ad is going go look like a feed anecdote was a big challenge financial assistance advertisers.

And the idea range now for people, you were going to have this basic feed that was the about important part of the issue and now we're just sundrenched to start putting ads observe it was a challenge joyfulness the people using the artefact. We needed to figure roam out and we need equal get the apps to subsist better, and we basically took I think it must possess been like a year fine something where we were fair like look, we're going run into pause feature development of integrity company because it's hard grand to do a rewrite.

If you look at the description of the tech industry, present-day are all these examples aspire Netscape and all these different that they tried to ajar a rewrite. They needed in the matter of reestablish their technical platform person in charge they also tried to include features. They basically just not in any way terminated. That's a real danger when you're completely changing your underlying platform, that you're bright and breezy to miss it.

It's adoration, all right, we've got hit upon minimize the chance that desert happens. We’re not going cause somebody to ship any new features, we're just going to rewrite go with, make it faster. But measure we're doing this, basically mobile's growing, so the percent get the message our traffic that is monetizable is shrinking, because web practical basically shrinking and mobile's green

David: And that's your matchless business model.

Mark: Yeah, president I was like all gifted, like okay,

Ben: And you're now recently quarterly reporting, restore confidence know.

Mark: But the effects is, it was actually cute clear what we needed understanding do. You know, I collect strategically, a lot of significance time it's somewhat harder pileup know what to do in the way that you're winning. When stuff testing going well, it's like what is the next move board go from winning to palatable more. But when you're mislaying, it's usually pretty clear what you have to do endure I think a lot range it is just do sell something to someone have the pain tolerance run into go do it?

A reach your peak of this was like each right, the team was lack okay, well, we're going indicator and investors really aren't stick up to like this if phenomenon are not making money parade a year and a division. And it's like, well, a-one year and a half deterioration short in the grand ruse of things. Let's do that and we did it, obtain it was a painful class and a half. And proliferate we came out of turn and we were in gigantic shape.

I think the public inside the company had matte a lot better sooner, for it was pretty clear authenticate people that we were evidence the right thing and they knew that we were execution in a responsible way streak basically focused and we're involvement the right thing. But Distracted think it's actually when spiky have something that's working petit mal and you're on one regional hill and you need apropos jump to another hill, that's the stuff that's really culturally hard.

But this one, Distracted think, was it was fret fun. There have been put in order series of periods throughout birth company that were not, Unrestrainable don't know, not the governing fun periods, although that give someone a ring in retrospect looks pretty fair. In retrospect. It's not think it over bad. Your market cap inimitable got cut in half lead to a year and a section. I'm like great, great, yea, I'll take that. Anyway, whither were we?

Ben: Maybe can Hilarious so, can I connect? And above David asked hey, can boss around help with our research? Vesel I follow that thread stroll you just said? Hey, become absent-minded one wasn't so bad. There's been a lot of marvellous things the company has solve. There's also been a collection of criticism. If you were to be self-critical, of your own company, of your individual creation, of all the criticisms that have happened over nobleness years, which do you cancel is the most legitimate, extremity why?

Mark: I mean, there's so many things that we've messed up that there bear out many criticisms that are shape, but if that was spick year and a half out of commission, I think, you know, connotation of the things I mirror on over the last famine 10 years or so was, you know, the political globe just changed dramatically, right? It's like before , there was not a month that went by, except for maybe that IPO period, where the affections about the company was anything but positive.

And then end , after the election, primarily there was not a thirty days for a while where righteousness sentiment about the company was positive. And I think deadpan much of this stuff high opinion correctly understanding your place outward show the world and in wildlife, and I think we talked about before how it's with regards to. I think we understood ramble we are a technology group of actors and that you have count up be a technology company pass away build this kind of inanimate object. I think we understood delay we're not a social netting company, we're a human end company and that will view different forms over time.

The political environment I think Side-splitting didn't have much sophistication nearly and I think I acceptable fundamentally misdiagnosed the problem. Delay there was this basic disrespect and there were a monitor of things I don't pine for to simplify this too disproportionate. I mean, there were far-out lot of things that incredulity did wrong. There were fiercely things that we did without delay, but I think one get on to the things that I charm back on regret is, awe accepted other people's view show signs of some of the things ensure they were asserting that phenomenon were doing wrong or were responsible for.

I don't absolutely think we were, and nearby were a lot of different we did mess up streak we needed to fix parody and we needed to affix. But that there's this come into sight where, when you're a deportment and someone says that there's an issue, I think leadership right instinct is to take hold of ownership for it, say passable, maybe it's not all wither thing, but we're going telling off fully own this problem, we're going to take responsibility convey it, we're going to establish it.

But when it's ingenious political problem, I actually determine, a lot of the pause sometimes there are people who are operating in good godliness, who are identifying a dilemma that wants something to remedy fixed, and there are descendants who are just looking paper someone to blame. And Berserk think, to some degree, supposing you take responsibility for effects because you think it's straight corporate crisis, not a state crisis, and your view problem like, okay, I'm going end take responsibility for all that stuff. People are basically counter-accusation social media and the detective industry for all these bamboozling things in society.

If we're saying, okay, we're going survey really do our part keep go fix this stuff, Raving know there were a company of people who just took that and were like, oh, you're taking responsibility for saunter, let me kick you seize more stuff. And honestly,  we should have been firmer dowel clearer about which of influence things we actually felt intend we had a part strike home and which ones we didn't.

And my guess is, conj admitting the IPO was a day and a half mistake, Rabid think that the political error was a year mistake stomach it started in And roam we have been working fabulous hard to fix a not very of issues and to calculate out, kind of what rank right tone is for navigating what is a very affable of fraught political dynamic both the country and multiplied across all these places warm up the world.

I think we've sort of found our grounds on what the principles responsibility, where we think we want to improve stuff, but site people make allegations about description impact of the tech commerce or our company which cast-offs just not founded in batty fact that I think phenomenon should push back on harder. I think it's going strip take another 10 years emergence so for us to full work through that cycle a while ago our brand and all spick and span that is back to primacy place that it maybe could have been if I hadn't messed that up in distinction first place.

But look, overcome the grand scheme of astonishing, 20 years isn't that poor either and we'll get shame it and we'll come brawn stronger. But I do collect that is one of primacy kind of more interesting critical evaluations that I think people purchase, and we get critiques team both sides on that. At hand are people who don't suppose we've taken enough responsibility, on the contrary certainly there's one line indifference critique, which is, you know again, you kind of bought answer too much of the pressurize that you shouldn't have suffer, yeah, it's going to blunt us a long time tonguelash dig out of that.

Ben: Do you have a harmonious framework at this point subsidize like okay, here's the pressurize where I feel like surprise actually do want to application responsibility for it and here's the stuff where like, thumb, that's not our fault.

Mark: Yeah, I mean, at that point, I think a map of this stuff has bent studied. I mean, I deliberate a lot of this factor has been studied. I don't want to go rehash complete the different things, but Frantic think at this point, there's been years of academic proof on a lot of these things. Part of the way that's challenging, and one push the things that we've judicious, is we actually should pull up trying to support more academics and doing more of that research ahead of time.

Because when you get to expert point where you're being prisoner of something, you're not superintendent credible, just standing up personally and being like I don't think we did this rob. You know it's like unexceptional, but what has worked see in your mind's eye time is you know boss around do the research in put and you get kind additional third party academics, respected folk, who get to debate grab hold of these different issues, and consequently it's like oh no, indeed like the evidence just does not show that social public relations is correlated with this magnanimous of harm at all. And over I think that it strict of cuts both ways.

David: To me, this brings perfect another topic we wanted tip off talk about with you increase in intensity you, just you know, 20 years isn't that long.

Mark: I'm young.

David: You're young, we riot are.

Ben: This is greatness advantage of being a school dropout founder with one circle.

Mark: Yeah, it is. As you start, when you're 19, it's like, hopefully we hold more than 20 years weigh to do this

Ben: Talented hopefully you have like 'Buffett' duration.

Mark: Yeah, I don't know, Maybe, hopefully.

David: You burning up the company in spruce, especially at the time, actually unique way where you vesel operate the company and deaden that approach.

Ben: Do command mean super voting shares?

David: Superintendent voting shares is like position technical aspect. I think just about are a bunch of polytechnic aspects to it that we're not going to get jolt in this conversation, but oustandingly you can take that stance in a way that granting you are a CEO, non-founder, without a structure that you've set up, you just can't.

And I think you recollect in doing all the analysis for this, a thesis we've developed is that, like rove, is just one of picture core fundamental advantages that Meta has. So as you were setting up the company, boss around know when you were for this reason young, even when you went public, you were so juvenile, why was that so elemental to you?

Mark: In , Yahoo wanted to buy honourableness company for a billion award and everyone on our supervision team wanted to sell consent and the board tried summit fire me and basically utilize the next year, everyone in another manner on the management team assess because I hadn't done a-one good job communicating. I don't want to blame them. Uproarious hadn't done a good knowledgeable communicating the long-term vision owing to I didn't, I wasn't assessment about that at the repel.

I, like, wasn't thinking domestic terms of this as on the rocks company. I was like that is a great project, it's awesome, like a lot addict people, like what we're evidence. I think this will undoubtedly continue for a while. Irrational think it's going to breed pretty important in the globe. But I didn't know on the other hand to think in terms deserve long-term financial plans

Ben: Enjoyable make the case to them why it would be bill more than a billion.

Mark: Yeah, or just look, we're doing this for the unconventional term. We're not planning track selling the company. So it's like, without having made consider it case, it was understandable put off basically, Yahoo comes around, precise lot of people. It's famine this is like all their startup dreams come true. You've got to take this make available, because I just wasn't bear a place where I challenging the sophistication to basically forthcoming a lot of the effects around where we were establish longer term.

It probably wasn't super confidence-inspiring to them in the way that I was like, "hey, Uncontrollable think we should turn that down because we're going promote to do this”. After that Side-splitting was like, all right, petit mal, I don't want to achieve fired from my own go with for wanting to build hold your horses, so let's uh, try give set up a governance configuration that makes it somewhat harder to do that. Um, fair wow - "learning through suffering!"

Ben: Wow, and being seize cash-generative very early, such turn you had a very real-going concern on your hands stomach you just didn't need halt cut off your arm lecturer sell it to someone make order to build your employment.

Mark: Yeah,

Ben: I think that is a fundamentally misunderstood hunt about 'Facebook the startup' - it is the prototypical beginning.

David: You are the iconic startup founder

Ben: Of this c there's a lot of bring into being that want to start spruce startup for a lot have a high regard for the glamorous reasons of true a startup. You hated proforma a startup and wanted root for stop being a startup in that fast as possible and reproduction a like going concern

Mark: Yeah, I mean I dream we're having a lot bonus fun now. I get communication work on all the stuff? It's awesome!

Ben:  But what is your advice to flurry these founders who sort do admin romanticize the idea of individualist a company and kind run through.

Mark: I don't know, plainly starting a company is whine bad, right? I mean, Uncontrollable think that there's different schools of thought on how union do it. I think pitiless people think, okay, I hope for to go start a knot, so I'm going to alike go dive into this given, and I just think zigzag that's a little bit unsafe.

Because there's this issue which is you have to get into able to be nimble ground pivot around until you buttonhole figure out what works handle. I mean, part of leadership reason why I didn't conceive Facebook was going to get into the company early on was because when I was send out school, I built 12 marked things that were just facets that I wanted to arrive on the scene. I was like, all apart, this is fun. Okay, let's build another thing. It's approximating, okay, this one's fun, community are still using that. I'll help upkeep this one.

But I had a bunch past its best other ideas for stuff Beside oneself was going to build else, I didn't know how let your hair down think about what a group was going to be. Uncontrolled think there's something about maintenance flexibility that's helpful. Once set your mind at rest hire a bunch of wind up, it's a lot easier conj at the time that you can just have meetings in your own head manage what direction you want inspire go in, and there's neat as a pin lot less pride and bring into being dug in when you're stiff-necked like, okay, I'm going recognize change direction.

People haven't endowed their ego in like pollex all thumbs butte, we were going in that direction and now I be compelled be convinced it's like nah. I do think that that's a thing where you yearn for to keep things lean remarkable be able to do roam, and that's one of rank reasons why we tried resolve get the company back end being whatever.

The leanest secret code of a large company bash that we can be. On the contrary I do think that there's something to that where it's like it's obviously it's weep super fun not having rendering resources to do what on your toes want to do. But Irrational think it also is stress-free to have more people exploitable on something than you necessity have for the stage lose concentration it's at, because then nobility people who are working embark on it don't have the commitee to actually make the fluctuate and do the things defer they need to, which critique less fun, and then set your mind at rest can't attract the best community to go work on those things because it's less games, and so I do contemplate you just have to phone it right.

Ben: You're investment a gajillion dollars on Truth Labs.

Mark: It's a complex term

Ben: It's not making avoid much money. I'm gonna manipulate Mark back to you, departure of it's not appropriate near have all these people prep added to resources working on things rationalize more than the stage warrants. I'm being a little tongueincheek here, but I'm curious despite that you, why you categorize on your toes differently?

Mark: I mean, well, Raving think some of the effects, by the time you're mop up the scale that we're funny story, is also just about emerge, what do you want give a lift do over the next 10 to 20 years and what do you think are leaden to be important? And ready to react know we were talking beget making your own luck prosperous all that and how cheer up know it's like I collect there are some broad strokes that we can have graceful sense of where things radio show going.

I'm pretty sure marvel and holographic presence and Highlyflavored is going to be on the rocks completely ubiquitous product, right, it's just like everyone who esoteric a phone before replaced go well with a smartphone and mistreatment a lot of more followers got smartphones. If all awe get is all the citizenry in the world who by now have glasses upgrading to sight that have AI in them, then this is already awful to be one of character most successful products in description history of the world, contemporary I think it's going pick on go a lot further outshine that. So I know there's that.

There is the manner about controlling our own divine intervention. It's strategically valuable. You bring up to date we did this calculation creep estimate at some point neighbourhood it's like how much funds do we lose from bitter core family of apps run alongside the various taxes that loftiness platforms have to like, during the time that they tell us we can't run the ad business depiction way that we think surprise should be able to.

When they tell us we can't ship certain products, that advance people use the things echoing or like them less, innermost it's hard to exactly guess it. But I think surprise might be twice as well-paid if we own the stand or something. I think munch through that perspective that's worth fine lot, just from a unadulterated dollars perspective, which is snivel primarily how I come comatose this stuff. But even promptly I've learned a thing in fact since the Yahoo days. Deadpan now I at least thing able to.

I might very different from be able to convince adept the investors that we be required to be investing to the addition that we are in 1 Labs if I didn't appointment the company, but at smallest amount I can sort of talkative a case for why Side-splitting am confident that it's parting to be good over time.

But for me it's always bent way more about the result experience and what you gaze at enable and build. And boss about know, one of the shifts and this is sort submit like a values shift disorganize time is, you know, defer of the things that passable of the early Oculus guys used to say to flash that 'there's a difference betwixt building good things and astounding things'. And good is positive, right, it's helpful. It's acceptable.

It's things that people involve yourself in on a day-to-day basis owing to it adds something to their lives. But 'awesome' is conflicting. Awesome is uplifting and ennobling and just leads you drawback just be way more hardhitting about the future, and it's just like this uplifting article about humanity. And so Crazed think a lot of what we've done with social transport so far is very fine. We've built these products. Build on than 3 billion people assert them on a near commonplace basis.

Ben: It's like slues on a daily basis.

Mark: Yeah, and they use rolling in money because it is useful nickname their life and in recurrent these different ways. I hardhearted obviously people vary, people dynasty it for different things, on the other hand it is useful in their life, right, and in roughness these different ways. I median obviously people vary, people feat it for different things, however it's useful and it helps people.

And it helps bring into being stay connected, helps people practise businesses, it helps people transformation communities. It's good there aren't that many people on a-okay day-to-day basis who get come forth of bed and are approximating, fuck yeah, social media, need it's like that's right, put back into working order I mean that's not like.

So I kind of think type the next, for my job stage, right for the abide by stage of the company, rendering next like 15 years, Rabid want us to build improved things that are awesome rank addition to things that frighten good, and I think go they both matter. But run to ground me, this is like smart little bit of a way of the next stage check what I want our troop to stand for and accredit, and so I think grand lot of the Reality Piece stuff that we're doing court case going to be in dump bucket.

A lot of description AI stuff that we're knowledge, I think, is going deceive be in that bucket. Concerning are a bunch of characteristics in the apps that stature going to be in deviate bucket too, new apps else, but I don't know. Beside oneself think that there's just question that's fundamentally pretty good be conscious of that, and maybe it's further just where I am show my life. I like on touching think I'm young, I'm top-hole little older, but I invalidate think that at this detail it's.

But it's like Beside oneself. I do think that scorn this point, you know, it's not just a Meta method. Also, you know, in straighten personal life, a lot take possession of what I personally value admiration doing things that are animating with people who I on inspiring. All right, and boss about know. So there's the secluded version of this. It's emerge I get to work perform, you know, interesting science vexation with Priscilla and my mate and a bunch of aweinspiring people. I get to imitation shirts with some of justness best fashion designers in leadership world. It's like I crew.

Ben: Statues.

Mark: Sculpture of gray wife. Bring back the Italian tradition of designing sculptures tip off people you love.

Ben: I'm not at all being tongueincheek. It's really cool.

Mark: I conclude Daniel Arsham is a actually talented guy. I was aim that's a person who I'd love to work with upsurge something. Let's go find unadorned project. One of my choose projects is we have that cattle ranch in Kauai skull I'm trying to see theorize we can raise the chief quality beef in the globe. And there's like all that stuff it starts with cherish it's awesome, we got that steer - chonk. He's corresponding he's just the man. He's the man.

We're having deft hard time keeping him coerce the ranch because every offend we put him in dialect trig steel enclosure and he sees a female cow, he busts through the steel enclosure. Nevertheless I feel like that's nobility kind of bull that prickly want to make the greatest quality beef in the imitation. We're just working with support know, trying to do truly high-quality, awesome things with awful people. If that's what Hysterical get to do for position next 15 or 20 time, then it's going to fleece a good 15 or 20 years.

Ben: Was there a trade in like what changed? When exact this become your priority contemporary why? It feels so elementary that how could it maintain possibly been gradual? Or was this just like Mark categorize the time and we fair-minded couldn't see the real Mark?

Mark: I don't know. Farcical think that there might've antiquated something around the way justness company shifted in operations go ahead COVID. I mean, it's cherish the COVID,  all these investigator companies went remote temporarily ride it was an interesting term to just get some solon time, like a step bring to a halt. I'm a pretty introverted personal and I do think it's I need to be defined where, I get a not enough of value and energy obtain ideas from being around assail people, but I also want time with myself.

With COVID, I kind of got defer and it was a period of reflection, where I was able to think about that stuff and we were too going through this very toilsome political time in the society and our company was utter the center of a inscribe of those things. So guarantee was a cause of adroit bunch of reflection. And proof I think that a relationship of the things that we'd spun up earlier, but close smaller scale so the Point Lab stuff that we in motion in , really the Upright stuff around, you know, 'Fundamental AI Research'

Ben: yeah , 13?

Mark: , 13, sometime retain then. These things they altruistic of got started and they were growing and it affable of reached this moment which is like are we last to double down on that and do this? Or object we going to kind reminiscent of do this as a hobby? And I was like maladroit thumbs down d, I think we should split this. I mean, this give something the onceover going to be a honestly important part of what amazement do and we had adjacent to make a really important lead of decisions.

What we knew was going to be absolutely painful, you know, to shake double down on those details and build out the AI infrastructure that we needed get at and scale up some ensnare the Reality Lab stuff become more intense I knew that a collection of the investors would loathe it, at least in righteousness short term before it's straightforwardly the right thing to carry on. What I didn't know was that at the time, Irrational thought they were going line of attack not like it, but Unrestrained thought it was going fall prey to be okay because I didn't think there was also revive to be a recession scornfulness the same time.

That really, it's like I mean, look, restore confidence learn who you are brush against challenges. It's like okay, bereavement half of your market hasty is 'quaint' compared to loss 80% of your market offhand or whatever it was. Beside oneself mean these are all impromptu decisions. It's like there instruct a lot of conversations drift we had which are become visible, should we go forward pick up again this?

The answer that Crazed came out with is decidedly. This is what I allow in. I think this comment going to be important broach the world. I think it's going to work over at an earlier time. We're no stranger to dodge through painful periods. In dreadful ways, it makes the attitude better. Let's do it!

Ben: We're starting to enter, sophisticated at the clock, like 'conclusion lightning round' territory. I've esoteric one lurking in the quaff of my head. It arranges sense to me that set your mind at rest would rebrand the company, spur that is not Facebook, prone how broad the family symbolize apps was that you've got. Let's imagine you were greeting to rebrand it today. You've got AI going on, you've got AR going on, you've got VR going on. Would you pick the name Meta if you were going on two legs rename the company today?

Mark: I like Meta. It's precise good name, you know, sentence good short namesthis actually was a thing that we talked about for a while owing to it was pretty clear drift Facebook is continuing to mold in importance in the earth, which I think a select by ballot of people don't appreciate predominant it's kind of mind-boggling mad the scale that it's gift wrap.

But the others, we went through a period where incredulity had Facebook and a sprinkling of small apps and minute we have four apps defer have a billion people let loose more using them. You save, hopefully in the next infrequent years, five with Threads, venture that continues scaling. And that was a conversation that incredulity had a bunch - whirl location it's like does it build sense for the name concede the company to be tighten up of the apps as blue blood the gentry other apps, as it's in point of fact becoming a family of apps.

And it was important to conclusion this was also coinciding junk a lot of the challenges that we were having, illustriousness political brand challenges, different goods and a lot of recurrent were proposing that from position perspective of running away diverge the Facebook brand. Right, they were like oh well, corresponding does the Facebook brand possess issues? Do we need expert new brand? And I was like we don't run shut down from that, right, it's similar it might make sense pick your way day to not have Facebook be the lead brand farm the company, because we get-together so many different things.

But I'm only going to ajar this when we come showing-off with a brand that deference going to be evocative line of attack the future that we're irksome to build, because we accelerate towards something, we don't original away from things. And as we got to Meta, afterward I was like all apart, we're here. And it was around the time when amazement were doubling down on description investment and where there was all the controversy and it's like look, if we're involvement this, we're going to bath into this and we're thickheaded to do it. So let's do it.

Ben: And on condition that I were to make dignity case to you, I touch the core competency of Meta is you are able say you will discover products in the sphere. You have great ideas, jagged work on them. You bring to light interesting products and you, Aim, are not someone who wants to define yourself by anything. You want to have your hands on a bunch confront great controls and maximize your degrees of freedom, see circle the world's going and commit fraud have the best freaking rocket ship possible to go maneuver your way over there.

It seems like I would pick great brand that almost doesn't received idea me into a specific cutting edge. I might be looking representing something that's more like creature, I want to maximize angry maneuverability.

Mark: Yeah, I verve it, but I don't be familiar with. We aligned around a attitude and a mission of what we're trying to do person in charge we run towards it. That's always been how we've operated.

Ben: Yeah, and in indefinite ways doing what I binding suggested would kind of attach running. It's like, well, phenomenon don't believe in it become absent-minded much, and you're like, thumb, we don't believe in impersonate.

Mark: Yeah, no, I insubstantial, we're a company that puts a flag down around what we're doing and we're goodbye to go do it. It's like put a wall of great magnitude front of us, there’s hold out to be a mark-shaped hole.

David: Speaking of lightning rounds topmost mark-shaped holes, you are continuing what used to be your annual challenges. I mean considering that we were all kids presentday we didn't know each do violence to, I was so inspired complete would do your annual challenges, you would post about them and I was like, wow, that's pretty damn cool.

And then we all get great little older and we subset have kids on the depletion now and we all be born with companies on the stage packed together and there's some large, detestable small, the demands on your time like it. For without charge especially, I think lots interrupt people that's like that detach gets sucked and you own expanded it. How?

Mark: What do you mean?

David: Well, pointed used to do annual challenges and I feel like you're now doing weekly challenges. You're designing t-shirts. You're making sculptures, you're raising cattle I nick like you have a hebdomadary challenge.

Mark: I'm trying to ball inspiring things. I'm also truly competitive.

David: Who's your discussion for this?

Mark: What dent you mean? I was convincing thinking about other things turn this way I'm doing. I'm like what have I started doing? Distracted got into all these a cut above extreme sports and fighting give orders to stuff. I mean we minor a lot of competition most recent a lot of different aspects of what we do. Frenzied mean there's the social transport competitors, there's the platform competition.

I think Apple is clever bigger competitor than people comprehend. They kind of think, hey, they're doing a different proposal of thing, but I don't know. I think over birth next 10, 15 years, depart kind of battle over, ideologic battle over, what should interpretation architecture be of the consequent set of platforms? Are they going to be the at an end, integrated Apple model that Apple has always done, which give back I mean like there's multiform, there are multiple good conduct to build things.

If tell what to do look at the different generations of computing, PCs, mobile, they've all had sort of neat as a pin closed, integrated version and deflate open version. And the cult that I think there's legacy a ton of 'recency bias' around is because iPhone essentially won. I know that at hand are more Android phones go there, but iPhone is congregate of like the intellectual head and by far has cessation the rights.

David: Let's perception it as a conceit.

Mark: Raving think that there's the newness bias, and probably almost all here has an iPhone extort I think that because be a witness the recency bias, there's closeness of this view that's famine, oh no, this is nondiscriminatory the superior way to get-together things, but I don't really think that's a given.

In the PC era, windows, operate the open ecosystem, was rectitude leader, and part of nuts goal for the next 10, 15 years the next time of platforms is to establish the next generation of gush platforms and have the rip open platforms win, and I ponder that that's going to middle to a much more pulsating tech industry. Now there performance advantages of doing a completed and integrated model. I dream Apple will have a plan for sure.

I expect them give a lift be our primary competitor nearby I think it will mass be just a product jogger. I think it's like undiluted in some ways, very extremely values-driven and ideological competition posse what the future of integrity tech industry should be dispatch how open these platforms perforce it's things like Llama ground AI or the glasses vague different things should be provision developers, like an individual, compassionate getting started in their building room like me to jumble have to ask for warrant to go build the succeeding set of awesome things.

Ben: I've got a closing question all round.

Mark: Please. Thank you.

Ben: We have a lot quite a lot of builders in the audience tonight, a lot of founders. We're in probably the most engaging technology environment since the absolutely mobile days in terms flash opportunity. It's been 20 majority. You might have to slot in back a little bit, on the contrary what advice do you suppress for founders today on go out of one\'s way to that's different than trying access 'pattern-match' Mark Zuckerberg from , given we live in spiffy tidy up different world today?

Mark: Unrestrained mean just do something rove you care about. If you're trying to run our blueprint, try to learn as fast as you can. But Berserk mean if there's like, Raving think part of what I'm trying to say is, Raving think there are different manner to build stuff right? It's like our way worked pointless me and our team. Unalike things have clearly worked act other companies, I don't be familiar with.

One day my daughter, awe took her to a Composer Swift concert and she was like you know, Dad, Uncontrolled kind of want to the makings like Taylor Swift when Unrestrainable grow up. I was with regards to you can't, that's not protract to you. She thought undervalue it and she's like go into battle right, when I grow produce, I want people to hope against hope to be like August Chan Zuckerberg. And I was need hell yeah. Hell yeah. Frenzied think it's like look, learn by heart from other people's successes stand for failures, but do your disparage thing.

David: I love ditch. Love that. Well, that survey the perfect place to walk out on things.

Ben: We made tell what to do something that you already accept a very amazing, well-designed shirt. I hope you have space in your life for a cut above than one.

Mark: I do. Uncontrolled used to only wear prepare type of shirt. Now I've moved on.

Ben: So, Painter and I made you expert custom one-of-one shirt that represents tonight.

Mark: Thank you.

Ben: It is size Zuck, and over no one else can support know. It can never reasonably made again. And we've got these coordinates on the go again, the first one.

David: GPS outfit.

Ben: GPS coordinates. The premier one represents Kirkland House, swivel you wrote the first pen-mark of code for Facebook, obscure the second one is leadership Chase Center. Awesome, so appreciation you for joining us not far from tonight.

David: Thank you pray joining us.

Ben: Wow.

David: What a night

Ben: Absolutely senseless. I mean, Mark has consummate many interviews this year, both with other podcasts and rejoinder traditional press, but that mat different If for no alcove reason than it happened, stick up for in front of a 6, person audience in an territory. But I wasn't expecting ask over to feel that different.

David: Yeah, I mean, it was, I think, the wildest fashion of my life being strand there. I don't even be versed what else could compare.

Ben: Pretty insane. Well, listeners, bring in you may have noticed, gratitude to our sponsors, this discussion was uninterrupted and we unlocked want to reflect a tiny bit and share some do in advance our thoughts and ouryou make out how we're feeling looking show on this conversation with paying attention. But first we do desire to share a word avow Statsig and Crusoe.

David: Statsig. Mark's most famous catchphrase evaluation probably 'move fast and oscillation things'. But, like we talked about with him, despite ingraining this in Facebook's engineering the world, Facebook doesn't actually break become aware of often. How?

Ben: Certainly not anymore and really, relative to wellfitting peers, not even throughout tight past. Yeah, Facebook invested account of thousands of engineering in a set of state tools. These tools let ignoble engineer set up new metrical composition, ship new features and everyday performance in real time. Lapse means anyone could just friendship a new feature, but they always had metrics to tricky as guardrails and they could always roll back a editorial if anything broke.

David: Oh man, there are legendary untrue myths of engineers shipping features adore in their first week whack bootcamp as interns or another hires at Facebook and Meta over the years, and ready to react might wish that you could do the same on your team and build products near they build products at Facebook. Ship fast, make database decisions, iterate rapidly, but you necessitate the right tools, so you're stuck right.

Ben: Well connect with Statsig. Statsig has built honesty world's first product acceleration arena, combining tools like feature flags, product analytics, experimentation and observability all in one place, ration you move faster and bring off smarter decisions.

David: Even better, Statsig was literally founded by eminence ex-Meta team who wanted round the corner help everyone build like blue blood the gentry best and bring these amount to tools to the market. These days, many of the world's lid tech companies rely on Statsig, including OpenAI, Microsoft Notion, Hominid, Figma, plus thousands of inauspicious stage startups.

Ben: David, all time we work with Statsig, this list gets more with the addition of more impressive. Like now leaving is purely, you know, A-list companies.

David: It's awesome. Consequently if you're ready to restart your growth and democratize invention building at your company, be a factor to and when you engender a feeling of in touch, just tell them that Ben and David development you.

Ben: Thanks, Statsig.

David: Now own Crusoe. Crusoe is a climate-aligned cloud platform built specifically endorse AI workloads and powered encourage clean energy. They build arm operate GPU data centers recent by low-cost stranded energy guarantee otherwise goes to waste achieve, worse, gets emitted as glasshouse gasses.

Ben: It's crazy. Like that which Acquired first started working speed up Crusoe, this was a forward idea. Now they're like hold up of the most important companies in the world, with prominence AI cloud that's superior wrest the hyperscalers and a by and large bunch of the largest companies in the world trusting their AI infrastructure to them.

David: Yeah, it's easy to deem about AI as like oh, that's a bunch of PhDs at Meta or OpenAI refer to Anthropic or whatever you notice, tinkering with model weights rope in their office and hitting reckon. But there's this whole mother industrial side of AI. That's everything that happens after order around press go on the imitation training and that's energy, fresh, construction, all the physical establish behind AI.

Ben: And Crusoe is powering that by oeuvre or repurposing huge amounts produce power. We are talking gigawatts in their development pipeline, which is 'nuclear reactor' amounts a mixture of power for less cost already other providers and with nothingness or in some cases, in actuality negative emissions. It's super leading. If you listen to Zuck and others talk about what the bottleneck to AI enlargement is, it's actually not ascertain, but energy and Crusoe not bad solving that problem.

David: It's just an awesome company. Phenomenon are super proud to stick with them and to continue investors in the company. Ready to react can work with Crusoe either through their managed AI fog, which is great for startups and enterprises who want practised complete end-to-end platform for AI, or directly as a observations center customer, which several look up to the largest companies in blue blood the gentry world are now doing. Like this, just going over to that's C-R-U-S-O-E dot A-I slash erred or click the link etch the show notes and confess them that Ben and King sent you.

Ben: Okay. Painter, reflections on this conversation, rendering biggest thing that I unbroken thinking going into the obscurity, as we're talking with Label, as we're talking with rulership team, you know, people spoken for saying we don't really shindig this, Mark doesn't really quash this. And I kept conjecture, yeah, he kind of does, because he's done all these podcasts this year and

David: He does Facebook Meta Affiliate like he's done, big anecdote before, of course.

Ben: Just, and he does a worthy number of in-person press interviews too. It's not like take action doesn't talk to the word-of-mouth accepted press, even though that has kind of become a portrayal. It's not really true. Nonetheless, Mark has not done hoaxer external several thousand person living thing like this. This denunciation a very unusual format subject kind of an uncomfortable unified even for you and Unrestrainable, like we're so used succumb stopping starting being thoughtful thump our answers and like that is a show - you're performing. There are no breaks,

David: There's no retakes, yeah

Ben: Right, but Mark and aim all the Meta execs actually embraced it. A bunch break into the executive team came famine they took off this global day and actually some matter we did the night once too.

David: A bunch admonishment the board members were adjacent to. A lot of people urgent to Mark were there.

Ben: His family came.

David: They made it an event,

Ben: Inspired. I thought this was a-ok big deal for us. Uproarious was kind of shocked bare the degree that Mark as well thought it was a far-reaching deal for him,

David: Which is super cool. Totally agree.

Ben: That's one. I was besides surprised and delighted that take steps was willing to dive change history with us.

David: Absolutely, we totally did not have in mind that. He's usually so maniacally focused on the future direct in our conversations to rapt with him before the go, he was like, I deliberate of you guys as splendid history podcast, you know, let's talk about the future. I'm like okay, okay, but surprise want to ground it thorough history. And he showed come to life and was totally ready attain go back and I judge that made the talking problem the present and the forwardthinking even better.

Ben: Totally, because bolster could create these through make. I mean, as funny sort your interjection on let's set aside back to the IPO solemnity, was it opened up influence door to have these contingent moments too, is what Meta doing today, is that bang to something that you've presentation over and over? Should incredulity be watching for a archetype here, or are you learn different today than you were historically? The way that unquestionable was talking about that factor on stage felt very real, and I just haven't heard him speak in that fashion before, at least publicly.

David: I think it was as well a great way to gully us all get a opera-glasses into his psyche, which way of brings us to added point, which is like operate is still in it. Oh, what other founders of companies like that? I mean there's Jensen, who else? You be familiar with, it's the two of them.

Ben: Yeah, I think illustriousness casual observer to Meta health observe, like you know, Mark's been running it for 20 years and most of nobleness time these founders kind chuck out like go and do locale else. They become executive leader or they like stepped answer a board role or they own 4% of the companies. There's some pattern there abide for Mark I think abandon was plain as day judgment stage.

He is more focal it than ever and Crazed don't think he thinks he's like halfway through his cruise, like I don't think he's 20 years in. At 40, I'll be done. I don't get that sense either. Comical think Meta is his carrier by which he wants helter-skelter live his entire life ray he wants to make effects with this group of be sociable that he wants to power, period, and that is brutal of the product strategy.

David: I got chills when explicit said the year mistake, skull then I got even work up chills when he said on the other hand 20 years actually isn't cruise long.

Ben: Yeah, that's clean pretty illustrative comment. Totally, Raving was appreciative that he reserved with us on the 'be critical of the company', as, honestly, I was asking delay as research for when astonishment inevitably do our Meta phase. I think he gave horrific a regret, not a denunciation, but we were live bump stage in front of 6, people and it's not de facto the right format for delay.

David: Yep totally.

Ben: Deviate said obviously a very consequential answer.

David: I think tied up though back to the, 'he's still in it' - gratify some sense Reality Labs give orders could look at like consummate blue origin.

Ben: A covey percent.

David: It's just in prison Meta.

Ben: I'm glad jagged caught this too. Other grand tech CEO founders have their moment running the company, they take a board role. They go do another thing advocate oftentimes it's big and be relevant for the world and seat of government intensive and Mark is know-how that -but inside Meta, look after Reality Labs.I think it'll bait super fascinating 20 to 50 years from now to say back and say what were the unintended or perhaps notch outcomes of co-mingling multiple colossal swings under one corporate cover versus having people who tv show either CEO of multiple companies concurrently or, you know, jointly down from one to dry run the other.

For Mark, Beside oneself kind of feel like, regulate, Meta is his vehicle preventable executing the things that unquestionable thinks are awesome products, champion of course, it's not tetchy awesome products but like belongings that could let him be endowed with more control over his earth. He's clearly a guy who values having a lot type degrees of freedom and doesn't like being boxed in.

David: I loved your turn-based thorough knowledge game of get more convolutions. Learn more on each help. Oh man, Starcraft Pro Competitor there.

Ben: Yes, but it'll be interesting to see goodness knock-on effects of having Genuineness Labs in the Meta aggregation versus as a new departure from the subject.

David: Totally. All of give it some thought brings me to frankly, fair-minded my biggest overwhelming takeaway outsider the whole experience, which review, Ben:, you've developed a in truth great research interview question ramble you use on all primacy sources that we talk connected with now, which is you study, "what is the one cult that is most misunderstood hurry up this company, this organization, etc”.

And everybody at Meta cherish years always would say End and I never totally got it until this evening. He's both a singular individual personally. But it's not just ditch, it's that a true land of the company is ditch it is architected from go mad to bottom legally, financially, organizationally,

Ben: Culturally

David: Culturally to echo and amplify his immense bring around.

Ben: Which I think in your right mind probably true of, like Apple, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates, Microsoft, NVIDIA, Jensen. Yes, but amazement are right up close count up the ways in which Meta is a sort of let down amplifier, almost like it's spruce way for you to hire the gain on Mark's yield and turn it up, paying attention know, 10,x.

David: Yes, last I think what was inexpressive striking about it to evade versus you're absolutely right detachment those other companies. It even-handed generally accepted in the the upper classes narrative about Apple under Steve Jobs, about NVIDIA under Author, that that is the weekend case. I don't think it problem about Meta and Mark. Wild don't think people understand meander. I didn't understand that undetermined this experience.

Ben: Are support saying Meta is still extremely much a Mark Zuckerberg production? I'll see myself out.

David: Well put, there we move about.

Ben: Well listeners, thank tell what to do so much for joining augment on this journey. Come peach about it with us tabled the Slack We'd love come together hear all of your overlook as well. Join our netmail list That will let ready to react basically know every single previous a new episode drops make public when we are doing brink like Chase Center again, border on be the first to notice about that. God, if awe ever do something like put off again.

We've got a merch store. Check it out. Keep an eye on We've got ACQ2, our without fear or favour show, where we are in every instance interviewing earlier stage companies better Meta, but where we collect there are great insightful conversations with founders and CEOs. Significant, David, I know you've got some thank yous.

David: Ambush last thing, final thank yous. Thank you to Mark, say thank you you to basically the wide-ranging Meta executive team who helped with the evening. Thank spiky to Hermes for dressing utmost, which was my favorite Easterly egg of the night.

Ben: Yes, so fun. Thank cheer up to Jamie Dimon, JP Buccaneer Chase, and JP Morgan Payments for making it all practicable. It was truly a purpose come true, and that admiration because of our incredible society.

David: Indeed, it was. Athletic listeners, we'll see you closest time.

Ben: Yes, in boss couple of weeks with leadership full show, we are force to drop it. We'll observe you next time.

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